T O P

I've been using Way of the Outlaw nearly nonstop since D2 release, in PvP and PvE. Here's what I would see changed.

I've been using Way of the Outlaw nearly nonstop since D2 release, in PvP and PvE. Here's what I would see changed.

ProxyknifeIsKing

Way of the Outlaw is one of the subclass trees that desperately needs love. These are great ideas. I’d love for it to get a dedicated exotic. I’d love if Lucky Pants got a new perk added on that made it work with Way of the Outlaw.


Crewx

I always liked the idea of Lucky Pants facilitating a Quickdraw for your Golden Gun. It suits it's established fantasy really well.


Igwanur

Cool idea. They could make it so that if you hold super and fire you kinda do a western style quickdraw and shoot, skipping the animation, but still anouncing it to your enemy(the hold q would make the gg start noise)


Fly1ing

Lucky Pants : Draw your Six-shooter Golden Gun much faster. Cancel your Super to get Super energy back depending on remaining shots (12%-ish per bullet). Guardian kills no longer refund bullets


The_Owl_Bard

#Lucky Pants# __________________________ *"A hunter back from a quest? Now that's the best storyteller in the galaxy."* ~ Cayde-6 __________________________ Intrinsic Perk: Illegally Modded Holster 2.0 > Precision hits load one round to the chamber of stowed Hand Cannons. Hand Cannons have faster ready speed & are more accurate immediately after swapping to them. Faster golden gun ready speed. Hip-firing golden gun increases it's range. Canceling golden gun refunds super energy.


revenant925

Drove me insane when I saw Bungie didn't rework Outlaw and Flame with the others.


K4yd3-7

I've literally been screaming this for the last two weeks lol It would be so cool, and so much more fun.


_Fates

I think an interesting super buff would be to allow it to infinitely spin dodge while in super like arcstrider, since it doesn't have super armor it could use the evasiveness.


Crewx

A unique, GG dodge animation would be really cool. Gambler's Dodge does fully function during GG though.


_Fates

Yeah I think marksmans dodge animation would fit it best tho


Crewx

Marksman's Dodge as a whole has anti-synergy with Top Tree because a free reload works against the reload speed granted by Chains of Woe. It works great with middle tree though; Playing With Fire has anti-synergy with Gambler's Dodge the same way Chains of Woe has anti-synergy with Marksman's Dodge.


_Fates

I'm talking about the animation not the perk, there'd be no point in reloading your melee while in ur super to throw when u could just golden gun them


Crewx

If someone's in melee range, I've experienced many times GG shots traveling between arms and knees. It's accurate at mid ranges, but it's so pinpoint that, in close ranges, it's clunky as hell. Meleeing is a lot easier and more convenient action to perform if someone is on top of me. Also, it grants versatility. I can toss an Explosive Knife into 3 enemies to kill them before turning to shoot others or a major without feeling like I'm wasting my Super. I could shoot them instead of throwing a knife, but that's slower, inefficiently uses ability energy, and introduces the ability to miss while under assault by 13 Thrall, 2 Knights, and an Ogre. Golden Gun has a lot of flinch when under fire, so being battered by fire from heavy enemy adds makes using explosives far easier and more efficient than shooting some of the time.


_Fates

It's a full auto 6 shot hip fire super that refunds a shot on a kill... I've vaporized everyone on console with hip fire if they're close enough. And this was a PVP idea not pve, and you don't waste your super in pve because the timer is set and encourages you to spam as many shots as you can to refund before the super ends. Throwing explosives is a waste of time in pve unless you're doing the trip mine ahamkara refund combo for boss dps.


Crewx

You're right, throwing the explosives is a waste of time, but not because of the damage they deal; they deal plenty of damage. They're a waste because they cost you Super duration. I've also popped off with Six-Shooter in 6v6. I don't think this change would influence PvP very much considering it doesn't grant the Super any extra damage, range, durability, speed (in the form of literal movement or activation animations), or actual GG shots. It may, in some specific circumstances, grant some bonus Super duration, but I don't think that would break the Super in Crucible.


The_Owl_Bard

Agreed. Gambler's Dodge feels more like a "gunslinger evasive move" and reminds me of McCree from Overwatch tbh.


Fly1ing

Meh. I'd rather have an actually evasive dodge


OnnaJReverT

go further: give it Bakris' dodge during the super


_Fates

Or make bakris work with light subclasses idk why icefall can but not bakris its called light shift for a reason


AdrunkGirlScout

It will always amaze me how much people will type to discuss this game. Good luck in your endeavors


Crewx

It's easy when you type at 70 wpm :P


AdrunkGirlScout

I meant more that you're invested enough in the game to articulate a discussion this in-depth lol


Crewx

Guilty, my family plays it together every week and has since the first VoG.


SigmaForceSpeedy

What a great family. I really wish my own family could share more interests.


RidersofGavony

While we're at it... I'd love a way to trigger my explosive throwing knife or tripmine mid throw.


Crewx

I'd like this feature with Incendiary Grenade.


RidersofGavony

How about something like... Your explosive throwing knife and grenades now explode when you release the button pressed to use them? Like how some grenade launchers work. That seems like it could be fun. I suppose for the swarm grenade it wouldn't explode, it'd deploy.


Crewx

Hmm. I'm worried a charging mechanic may feel too similar to a Warlock.


RidersofGavony

I guess mechanically it's similar to charging, but I don't think it would feel like that. If press and immediately release the button they act like normal, if you hold it down and wait to release it they *pop* at release. It just gives you more control.


carlcapo77

You can trigger trips in air, but you have to shoot them.


OnnaJReverT

you can already do this for tripmines by shooting them, but it's fairly difficult and YAS actually makes it harder since the grenade takes more damage to destroy


revenant925

Agreed. The subclass has no coherent identity. One perk is support with nothing else on the tree benefiting it, one perk is a trap with no other perks that benefit from it.


Mizutsune1

I agree with this, and I think a lot of subclasses in the game have this problem. I think Middle tree arcstrider would fit this as well.


revenant925

Oh for sure. That one at least is a little coherent, with using melee to start the disorient and give energy back, but compared to Warrior it's not as smooth as say, Sharpshooter or either nightstalker tree


PoofThereGoesTheRoof

I would like to see chains of woe grant actual in-air accuracy. The mobile run and gun class should be able to hit precision shots midair.


Crewx

I love the idea. I felt like in-air precision shots deserved a Chains of Woe stack anyway, since they're so lucky and awesome feeling.


DefiantMars

You'll find no arguments from this Warlock about your assessment here. Something needs to be done to the Way of the Outlaw. In order to visualize what it would be like, I've attempted to crunch the wording into something we'd be more likely to see in a tooltip. * **Proximity Throwing Knife:** Throw a knife that attaches to a surface upon impact and explodes when it detects an enemy nearby. * **Chains of Woe**: Gain increased Handling and Reload Speed from the following actions: Airborne kills, hip-fire precision kills, Solar explosive kills, Super kills, Special and Heavy Weapon multikills. Stacks up to 5 times. * **Bombs for Bullseyes:** Gain immunity to your own Solar explosions. Each Chains of Woe stack grants increased grenade damage and explosive damage resistance. * **Six-Shooter:** Golden Gun has doubled capacity \[6 shots\], accuracy, and rate of fire, and refunds a bullet with each kill. Getting a melee kill and using your melee, grenade, or Dodge ability extends your Golden Gun duration. I only have two complaints. The first is how wordy and conditional Chains of Woe and Six-Shooter are. Even my abbreviated versions here still take some time to process mentally. The second is that while I think you've resolve most of the issues with the tree. You're boosting grenade damage, but you don't actually have a way to get it back. So unless you're running YAS and/or a Demolitionist weapon, you don't actually have a loop like the other Gunslinger trees and I have a deep distrust of subclasses that need exotics to make them functional.


Crewx

Yeah, I tried to avoid that loop since there'd so many ways to get stacks. Trade off either using your Grenade to get to max stacks quickly, or wait until max stacks to throw your Grenade. Plus it'd work well with YAS. I love your abbreviated language, it did feel pretty wordy.


DefiantMars

I just think that trees like Flame, Outlaw, and Fire-forged are missing something since they can't natively feed their own gameplay and need to turn to outside sources to make them sustainable. I guess you at least have the weapon handling and a damage buff to look forward to. And it sounds like it could output solid damage if you have YAS equipped.


Crewx

Yeah, I get that. My concern is that stacking any sort of looping mechanic with the already-existing YAS might make it a bit OP (YAS is very good for boss damage, it used to match Nighthawk), not that an irrelevant spec becoming OP is the worst thing.


DefiantMars

Maybe a Hunter tree can survive without an ability loop in lieu of a persistent stat boost and conditional damage buff? I don't think that would work quite as well for a Warlock tree if Flame's current state is any indication. After all, what is a spellcaster without spells? One of the interesting consequences based on the ability wording as written means that you could use explosive Solar weapons like GLs and RLs point blank and not take damage. Is that intentional?


Crewx

Actually yeah, I did mean that for situational use and coolness (There's a cool audio cue of sizzling flames around your armor when you sit in a YAS Tripmine explosion that deals no damage to you), and because you could then pair that with Font of Might and make a pretty neat Solar weapon build, sacrificing your elemental versatility for increased Solar damage. It would also facilitate an option for using GLs/RLs in close range, albeit locking you into Solar damage. No Salvager's Salvo. Also, I hear what you say about a stat boost and damage buff, my concern is that it's very similar to bottom tree's Golden Gun and a lot of damage buffs might encourage using Six-Shooter as a boss damage tool (You can with YAS, but technically the Tripmines have the damage, not the GG shots). It does do a lot of damage with Star-Eater Scales and an enemy debuff, so I'm not sure damage for it is an element to implement. If you meant Weapon damage, I could see that too. I thought a damage buff on Chains of Woe would be a bit too powerful though (Outlaw AND Rampage on every gun?).


DefiantMars

Oh, I was referring to your grenade damage boost. Although, I wonder if buffing knife damage as well would be too over the top?


Crewx

Knife damage could certainly work, although the explosion damage does already one-shot pretty much every red bar except Cabal.


hockey_man_dude

This is awesome take my upvote


Crewx

:)


Ulldric

I think this is a wonderful write up with a lot of good ideas; as a Crayola muncher, I never knew you could even use abilities mid GG, and encouraging hunters to use their full toolkit at all times is a stroke of thematic and mechanical genius IMO. I think even just an Exotic with your proposed change to Six-Shooter (and maybe some actual damage reduction in super) would be enough to make me want to run this subclass 24/7 on my Hunter.


Brightshore

As a Warlock, I like this. Golden Gun needs something like Achlyophage Symbiote from D1. If I was to redesign it I would go about it this way. ​ * Increased Golden Gun duration by 4 seconds. * An additional bullet. * Increased range. / no fall off. * 20% damage resistance. My reasoning for this is because I believe Golden Gun to be outmatched by all the various dangerous roaming supers that exist. Enemy combatants hide, or rush the goldie, getting an easy kill. With things like Dawn Chorus, Doom Fangs, Geomags..and so on Goldie needs a super enhancing exotic that truly reveal the fangs of the Golden Gun.


Crewx

I like that a lot, Achlyophage used to be one of my favorites before Nighthawk first came out in D1.


FlintHipshot

Fellow long-time Outlaw main here, you summed up what I’ve always said is the subclass’s biggest weakness, it has no identity compared to almost all of the other Hunter subclasses (RIP Top Tree Arcstrider). Sharpshooter is all about precision damage, you gain increased super energy, stability, handling and increased super damage and energy for hitting headshots, while A Thousand Cuts is all about burning targets. Outlaw has a basically useless perk in Deadshot, and Chains of Woe has little synergy with the rest of the class since you’re discouraged from using Explosive Knife to headshot (in PvP at least) and your GG can’t deal precision damage like bottom tree. Plus, Gunslinger is the only Hunter light subclass tree that doesn’t have an on-dodge buff perk (Bottom Tree Arcstrider grants damage resistance while dodging and Top Tree Nightstalker grants damage resistance on dodge, and both give increased sprint speed). To me, Outlaw should evoke images of an aggressive, take-no-prisoners Wild West badass, hipfiring and lobbing sticks of dynamite while weaving in and out of cover. My 2 cents? Outlaw should look to maximize it’s damage output with both abilities and guns. Combine Deadshot and 6-Shooter. Chains of Woe: Dealing damage with abilities improves reload speed and handling for you and nearby allies. (3 stacks, +10 reload and handling per stack) New Perk - Desperado: Dodging increases ability damage and the speed at which you cast your abilities for a short time. (20% more ability damage and faster ability cast animations, 3.5 seconds) Desperado + YAS would actually allow your Tripmines to OHK some opponents in PvP (similar to Titan’s Heart of Inmost Light) and would also boost your damage in PvE by allowing you to throw more knives and grenades during GG with higher damage. Yeah, you don’t have Nighthawk’s precision damage, but you can throw a buttload of explosives and chip away with your 6 shooter, or use the increased speed and damage to ad clear and do some boss damage. It also gives Gunslinger an on-dodge buff to match the other subclass trees.


Gatorkid365

I’m on the same boat as you with Way of the Outlaw. Not sure if you’ve noticed this but sometimes when I use my explosive throwing knife it will just go somewhere else, or when it explodes it does no damage. It’s incredibly annoying as Way or the Outlaw definitely needs some love Also for the exotic to pair with this subclass. Had an idea that we could get an exotic helmet that’s a cowboy hat that could extend the super for 4 seconds and increase duration with every kill Also I run YAS mostly cause the grenades do a nasty amount of damage but the normal trip mines are weak sauce


Crewx

ABSOLUTELY. Explosive Knife auto-tracking fails are my #1 reason for missed knives.


Gatorkid365

Amount of times I’ve lost a trials match BECAUSE my knife didn’t do damage/went in the opposite direction is annoying. When I first got into Destiny I fell in love with this branch because it was everything I loved. Six shooters, cowboy, outsmarting your opponent. It was just my dream class. Hopefully it gets some sorta love, I don’t expect it to be like “the boss damage” super but one for clearing ads when your team is getting overwhelmed would be great


Alakazarm

Having CoW on special/heavy multikills would absolutely be too much, but other than that I like these proposals. I find it bizarre that you're actually managing to kill yourself this frequently on explosive knives, though.


Crewx

Oh yeah. Toss it into an Ogre or Witch shooting constantly or someone shooting an auto rifle. As for the multikill bit, I thought it would help facilitate a lot of builds if every other Special/Heavy kill granted a stack.


Rider-VPG

I agree that the core tree needs some love, especially in regards to node synergy, but it'll be really hard to persuade me that the super needs any changes at all. By nature of being a hitscan super with potential to cross map and super shutdown extremely easily, I don't think the super needs any changes right now. I wouldn't be against any buffs to the tree's neutral game though, such as moving the YAS grenade energy refill effect to replace Deadshot on the tree, as a wellspring for abilities sort of node where it gives energy to all abilities. Maybe even have YAS stack with this new node to really lean into trip mine spam.


Grunt232

I think aztecross did a video about it recently, but top tree Goldie can't 1 shot outside of something like 15-20 meters. It's not in a good spot right now, I think today's TWAB mentions the range nerf.


Rider-VPG

30 metres actually according to bungie. Using the subclass earlier today it definitely felt like it was one shotting at the ranges you tend to fight the majority of players in. If it's anything less than that then it's a bug, and not the case of the super being in a bad spot. Even then, a follow up shot isn't asking for much given how fast follow up shots come out, how much aim assist they have and it refunds a bullet on kill. Edit: 30 metres for damage falloff to start in hipfre, 40 in ADS. One shot lethality hip fire should be between those values.


Cheeseyex

Except it’s not. Damage fall off for golden gun currently starts at 23 meters. It can’t one shot past 34 meters. https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/no1q4p/hey_bungie_i_dont_mean_to_alarm_you_or_anything/ That being said this post is valid regardless of this bug as the subclass really does feel abit awkward right now.


Grunt232

Ah my bad, still feels bad though, and you won't win any super duels. Though I just saw another post that claimed bungie messed up their bug fix on this so who knows.


Rider-VPG

It's entirely possible bungie did fuck up the bug fixing. This is 2021 Bungie after all.


Grunt232

Apparently the star eaters adjustments may have broken stromdancers brace so it's just classic telestoing across the board right now Not like anyone really used brace anyway


Rider-VPG

Broken how? Like buffing Stormdancer's Brace? Or nerfing?


Grunt232

Nerf. I think it takes more stacks but does more damage but you need twice as many kills https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/nwzyao/bungie_stealthnerfed_stormdancers_brace_the/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share


Rider-VPG

Damn, that sucks. Reads almost exactly like the changes to Star Eaters. Overall damage buff, but much harder to pull off. I wish Bungie would give Stormtrance some love.


Grunt232

Most light subclasses need love sadly, so many don't have any synergy


dieguitz4

> 30 metres all I can think of is my erentil that could get 34 m kills pre nerf lol


Crewx

The YAS grenade refill will buff the Super directly as you don't want to, because GG shots would grant energy :P I avoided any sort of damage buffs. The only GG change I think Six-Shooter needs is to avoid duration waste on ability animations during it. Its other problems get patched by exotics. GG may be hitscan, but it faces really hard damage dropoff at long ranges. In PvP I feel most effective at fighting and shutting down other roaming Supers than players with their own guns.


Rider-VPG

> The YAS grenade refill will buff the Super directly as you don't want to, because GG shots would grant energy :P Didn't consider that, and it's more of an indirect buff. How about: Throwing knife hints grant grenade energy; Grenade hits grant throwing knife energy? Then leave YAS as what it is now. Buffs the neutral game, leaves the super untouched.


Crewx

It is an indirect buff, but it would facilitate either a lot of Incendiary Grenade burning for boss damage, or a lot of Swarm Grenades for zone control. As for Grenade hits granting Knife energy - That makes both Dodges useless for Way of the Outlaw. Gambler's Dodge is the most effective currently simply because you pretty much always have Explosive Knife up when you use it, and Marksman's Dodge conflicts with Chains of Woe's reload speed. As a Hunter, we have high Mobility, so Dodge cooldown is pretty short, so Melee cooldown is pretty short. I've used the Momentum Transfer mod and the Heavy Handed mod with Way of the Outlaw before, and the issue with both is that I get my Explosive Knife faster with Gambler's Dodge than I do with any other vector, even with Heavy Handed's massive energy return, even with both mods combined, and I have 80 Mobility, it could be even faster. Any perk like that would be useless next to Gambler's Dodge's base functionality. Maybe if I combined that effect with Heavy Handed or Momentum Transfer, I'd get the knife faster than with the Dodge? But thats a lot of work and mod investment and I could just double tap B.


Rider-VPG

You're entire post was talking about the core of the subclass tree and any exotic interactions the tree may/should have. I really don't see anything wrong with having another vector of maintaining ability uptime. Gamblers dodge you have to be in a very short range for it to trigger the energy refill. You're not always going to be in those ranges safely, take GM Nightfalls for example. If your point rests solely on gamblers dodge resets melee cooldown anyway so why would I ever need another way to reset melee cooldown, then it's a weak point at best.


Crewx

That's just one element of my point; the subclass already has anti-synergy, and I don't think introducing more anti-synergy is the right way to update it.


Rider-VPG

How is it anti-synergy? The entire reworked node is ability synergy. What honestly needs to go from the tree with Chains of Woe. Chains of Woe being on Outlaw doesn't make sense at all. At least Deadshot is synergistic with Golden Gun being a direct buff to it's aim assist. You want to get rid of "anti-synergy" then Chains of Woe or Deadshot needs to go. Chains of Woe has the least synergy out of all of the nodes in the tree so should go. I initially went with Deadshot as I was playing into your fantasy with your reworked Chains of Woe; but reconsidering given how Outlaw isn't the tree for precision. Done, problem solved. Marksman's dodge retains it's usefulness, the tree has more synergy, and the super remains untouched.


Crewx

Your action has - - Given all 3 Gunslinger trees anti-synergy with Gambler's Dodge (Middle Tree gets Melee energy from Playing With Fire; Bottom Tree gets resets from Precision Kills), effectively killing Gambler's Dodge as an option for a Gunslinger except to patch up Weighted Knife misses. Poor Cayde-6's Gambler moniker doesn't seem to mean much now. It also sucks because Gambler's Dodge travels more distance than Marksman's Dodge, so it nerfs the subclass's mobility indirectly. - Removed an iconic ability that's been in the Gunslinger class since Destiny 1. - Removed the iconic effect of the 'Way of the Outlaw' class having the Outlaw perk built into all it's guns. - Made you seem pretty confrontational.


Rider-VPG

- Good. Gambler's dodge being the only way to recover melee charges quickly leaves very little room for any variety in builds or playstyles. It should not be the one and only. It's a class ability, not an exotic. Gambler's dodge doesn't need to be the dominant must pick dodge ability. - So? It's not like reworks haven't done that before in the past with other subclasses? Destiny 1 and Destiny 2 are also very different games. What works in Destiny 1, might not in Destiny 2 and vice versa. Chains of Woe falls into that category. And Iconic is definitely NOT what I would call such a weak ability that can be found on practically every weapon in the game bar explosives. - Again so what? Theming shouldn't be the crux of balancing. Actual balance should. Sure for initial designs and concepts use a theme as a baseline, but sticking hard to a theme is just going to hamstring the class in the long run. The subclass needs to evolve and keeping chains of woe isn't it. - Sorry if I came off that way, I don't want to be confrontational, I just wanted to have a discussion. If I came off as confrontational, it's because you trying to push that having synergy is problematic, but not having synergy is also problematic. Which is it? As a note this is probably going to be the last from me on this topic as I've discussed it to death already today. I'll leave you to your musings.


Crewx

- But it's also indirectly killing variety in the playstyle by locking Gunslingers into a single Dodge ability. Lots of subclasses have synergy with certain class abilities; Top Tree Arcstrider and Gambler's Dodge. Bottom Tree Gunslinger and Marksman's Dodge. Bottom Tree Warlock and Empowering Rift. It's okay to lean into certain side abilities more than others if it facilitates engaging gameplay or unique and effective design. - I wouldn't call it weak, and I would call it as iconic as Well of Radiance sharing a name with Sunsinger's Radiance, and removing it would be as much of a thematic failure as calling Top Tree Sentinel Code of the Protector instead of Code of the Defender (Salty). - Themes are important to make different clusters feel different in player's hands. No other class in the game grants reload speed on precision kills; it's only also present on weapons. It allows freedom in my weapon choices; I've used a Quickdraw weapon in PvE before, and it was a lot of fun. Chains of Woe synergizes really well with weapons like DMT and TLW and those weapons suit the subclass extremely well. I don't think a subclass update should sacrifice those for the sake of some extra melee energy. - No worries, mate, it's easy to seem heated online.


Black_Knight_7

It should naturally increase damage per kill, which should also stack on star eaters. Imagine hitting 3 ppl in pvp. Then a super comes and you one shot it. Its already so weak it wouldn't be meta but would be fun as hell Also my friend thoughts about an exotic that would let the shot bounce once, would have to make sure the tracking isnt too far range, im talking someone hiding just around a corner, not spam a wall and kill everyone


Yo_Shazam

As an outlaw main in PvP I love these changes. I’d also like to see YAS affect proximity knives as well for more utility maybe even give two Tripmines like in D1 but I’d be fine with just the former.


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Crewx

No, Golden Gun has a base ammo capacity of 3, so doubling it would make it 6. Saying 'doubled' is just a way to shorten the language.


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Crewx

Not precision hits, just ability usage. Just enough duration refund to counteract the animation of throwing a grenade or dodging. And no precision damage, I didn't say that anywhere.


Fly1ing

Wrong tree, he's talking about the Six-shooter one


carlcapo77

Titan main giving upvote because you dropped Frabjous in this wall of text.


MATT660

A fellow connoseur, i tip my hat to ya


hfzelman

Chain of Woe is literally the best side perk on a skill tree for PvE but they slapped it on 6 shooter so it’s been unusable for all of D2


jaysmack737

Pretty sure top tree is from Shin Malphor, and bottom tree was from Cayde


Crewx

But Cayde summons The Last Word for his Goldie, not Eyasluna.


jaysmack737

No? He summoned Ace as his Goldie


Crewx

You actually see him put Ace away, reach upwards, and draw a Golden Gun. He also uses TLW Goldie in the red war cinematics


Only_Bane

Way of the outlaw is such a cool aesthetic, would love to see space cowboy buffed


Shadoefeenicks

Thank you for this! I too play Outlaw way more than any other tree, but it's synergy is desperately bad. I love your proposed changes.


Sigmas18

Explosive only DR works surprisingly well for PvE since a lot of damage is considered splash damage, atleast the damage I end up dying to. I'd maybe consider improved regeneration based on chain of woe stacks almost like how sunspots or Tommys Matchbook works, having regen trickle slowly mid combat or having an insanely short delay to the regen start to help with survivability. GG duration extension on ability hits/kills could probably be more of an outright feature rather than just refunding the time it took to use those abilities, if you want to encourage use of abilities during GG you could do something like YAG where GG gun hits gives ability energy and ability use gives duration, bake that effect into GG and have it stack with YAG so each GG shot gives you a whole grenade charge instead of needing two shots. Kinda turns GG into a better designed version of the original D1 Sunsinger where you toggle on a super mode for your class with a Golden gun and a crap ton of ability spam.


QuickLava

I've been thinking about a way they could give WotO some Exotic synergy, and the one that I keep coming back to (and that would probably be really easy to implement) is this: what if they allowed the perk that refunds bullets on Golden Gun kills to trigger on the last shot in your Golden Gun (ie. killing with the last bullet in your mag still refunds the bullet). Because if they did that, you'd suddenly be able to use Celestial Nighthawk with Top-Tree (since you'd get your CN bullet back), which would open up an option that's both strong, and in line with the flavor of the tree. You only get one shot, so if you miss the party's over, but if you're accurate (a focus of the tree, with Chains of Woe) then you've got some of the heaviest-duty ad clear in the game from extra-damage GG shots, explosions on GG kills, and refunded super energy (meaning either increased duration, which might be super busted, or a refund afterwards, which is still quite good). Just food for thought. Oh, also, if they were gonna buff Top-Tree's super by itself, perhaps refund some Super duration on precision kills with GG? Could make it legitimately relevant, fits with the theme of rewarding precision, etc.


Seek_Seek_Lest

Personally what I feel the super needs is to have combustion intrinsic to it. That will help massively with add clearing, also to have it's range fixed Because it's currently glitched and really bad. Knife kills extending gg duration is moot when GG kills extend it's duration and refund a bullet. It would be better if kills with grenades or the explosive knife gave you some sort of buff. Like increased health regen and super regen? That would be some good utility. Bottom tree GG has the ability to regen super faster on precision kills, why not allow top tree to regen super faster on ability kills? (This would make young ahamkara's spine a top teir exotic for the top tree. Use double of the mod that regens melee ability on grenade kills and you're golden (pun intended))


never3nder_87

> The Style - Did you know you twirl Golden Gun after a dodge? Frabjuous. I think you twirl it every time you draw it; so if you throw a grenade in super, or I guess anything else that would hide the gun, but not end the super


Spock_Lite

Wow, this is a fantastic breakdown. Love all of your suggestions.


The_Owl_Bard

I wanted to thank you for making this post. I used to play top tree golden gun in PvP a TON. It was my go to class because (as you stated before) made me feel the most like a gunslinger but thanks to different indirect (stasis and smaller maps) and direct nerfs (damage from explosive knife and a range nerf to the super). I do think they need to rework the tree. Middle Tree and Bottom Tree has a ton of synergy but it feels like this tree just got some odds and ends.


TheLegendofPit

What about being able to shoot your own granade with golden gun to make a huge explosion with massive damage? (maybe when in super the granade transforms into this dedicated "c4" explosive) This would solve the problem of using all your golden gun shots for a single major enemy and it would also give the super an AOE. Also it would be quite difficult to pull off so it would be really cool and suit the sharpshooter/traps equipment aspect of the subclass a lot. Though it might be too big of a change


Isrrunder

Ye. Gunslinger is my favourite hunter subclass but top tree just doesn't compare to the infinite throwing knifes of the two other classes and the infinite supers of blade barrage


STAIKE

Hell yeah! Outlaw is absolutely my go-to Hunter tree. Refunding GG killshots was the best thing that ever happened to hunters. Now let's make it even better!


zavioli

Exotic idea: ach symbiote returns and gives health + increased duration on gg kills (since its already 6 shot)


dildodicks

would love to see this subclass get a pve buff since i've always preferred fan-firing weapons and seeing good usage of it in pvp is so satisfying and i'd like to have that feeling in pve since i suck at pvp


Linxxxxx

Using Celestial on 6 shooter should make enemies explode on kill


Mizutsune1

Really agree with this. I think a lot of the older subclasses lack synergy the way Stasis or some forsaken supers do (some, middle tree arc also barely has any synergy). Id really like to use way of the outlaw more, but in almost every activity I believe bottom tree is just better. PVE? Celestial nighthawk is your best dps option, and if you want ad clear you'd use any other hunter subclass, especially Revenant or Tether. PVP? While some people enjoy outlaw in PVP and I agree it has a better super (When it isnt bugged.), I prefer bottom tree because of the amount of super energy you gain with its perks, as well as weighted throwing knife just being a very good and fun tool.Also I'd like to see an update to middle tree gunslinger as well. I feel like it was overnerfed. Also, anyone else not like proximity throwing knives? Like, I dont think way of the outlaw was ever supposed to be "The Trapper". I think this was top tree nightstalkers identity, and the knife just doesnt belong in its kit. I'd really like if the tree was more focused on just making your guns feel a lot more better and having your abilties synergize with your guns somehow.


Crewx

I like the Explosive Knife concept, but it being a proximity mine is a little odd.


Squatting-Turtle

I miss keyhole and combustion.


Oakenfell

I'm a Hunter who *mostly* plays Gunslinger in PVP and PVE though Stasis has certainly been reducing my Gunslinger playtime. My biases are these: - In PVP, I like playing top tree and playing defensively using my proximity knife paired with Gambler's dodge for uptime. I typically run YAS 99% of the time because my knife and tripmine allow me to hold one entrance/exit and not have to think about enemies in that area as I go full Laning Larry mode in another route. The weakest aspect is my Super for sure as bottom tree Gunslinger has the added range that is needed to challenge 120s, DMT and some Snipers if I'm feeling ballsy. With top tree, I often feel outclassed. - In PVE matchmade activities and Gambit I typically use middle tree the most. Personally, the combat loop of middle tree with YAS is the most fun I have in PVE. Combat opens with me tossing my tripmine, using my melee to ignite an enemy, use my Gambler's dodge to reset my melee, toss another tripmine and repeat the cycle. The moment I introduce some Auto-Loading Holster or Demolitionist modded weapons, the build takes off and doesn't slow down. In this situation, Blade Barrage is on the weaker end of Supers but I don't mind because of the sheer amount of damage that my constant tripmines + knives are putting out. That's not to say that I won't use this subclass for other content such as VoG's first couple of encounters where there isn't a boss to deal with. And speaking of... - In high-end PVE, I'll default to bottom tree Gunslinger and I'll dabble with it in PVP and Gambit. Athrys' Embrace was such a **huge** addition to what was originally a one-trick subclass (Nighthawk) that it completely changed my perspective of the whole package. Athrys' embrace gave me a huge damage spike outside of my super, gave me some *hilarious* PVP bullshit that I could use for myself, and it has built-in Unstoppable countering all in one package. Not to mention that with Knock Em Down, I don't feel like I'm at a huge disadvantage for *not* having Nighthawk equipped. In fact, I feel like the only time I have Nighthawk equipped is for when I'm doing raid bosses. With all of that in mind, I have come across the following conclusions: - Bottom tree is all about precision kills. The passive makes precision kills easier by jacking up your stability to crazy high levels and the throwing knife rewards precision kills by refunding it's use *and* giving you more stacks of your passive. When you get precision shots with your Super, you support your party by generating orbs. The **entire** kit works coherently together. - Middle tree is all about "heating up" and combos so to speak. It's all about igniting your enemy through the use of your knives and using it to have bonkers uptime on your dodge to either give you more throwing knives or to have [free reloads on your weapons](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xK6X3AU3rI). Unfortunately, it's not 100% obvious at first that this subclass **desperately** wants the user to use Momentum Transfer or (especially) Impact Induction to take advantage of this ability-chaining playstyle. - Top tree gunslinger, on the other hand, is a mishmash of conflicting themes. Chains of Woe fits in more with bottom tree for rewarding precision kills. Proximity Knife encourages defensive play. And it's short-range super encourages aggressive play. I like your ideas. I'm not entirely sold on top-tree being "the Cayde-6" subclass and not the bottom tree but that's besides the point. I feel like if we're to go down the "explosions and speed" route, then the Super ought to have a huge Firefly/Dragonfly explosion on kills. This would also lead it to synergize with the modification I'd make to Chains of Woe. I'm also not a fan of how wordy and specific your new Chains of Woe change is. Instead I'd just dumb it down to: **Chains of Woe**: *Gain increased Handling and Reload speed from kills. Gain increased stacks from solar explosive weapons and abilities. Stacks 10 times.* With this change, you don't force players to actively play a narrow set of weapons due to having to be fired from the hip or in the air to have *some* benefit but at the same time you reward players by going down the solar explosions rabbit-hole by giving them 2x the amount of stacks. By making it stack up to 10, unless you're slaying out a horde of dregs and thrall it'll be unlikely that you reach the full 10 stack *without* making use of explosions somehow. Lastly, you mentioned survivability and I agree that it's a huge concern especially if we're to stand much closer to PVE and PVP enemies *and* use explosives. The only addition I'd make would be to rework the knife to **Survivalist's Throwing Knife**: *Throw a knife that attaches to a surface upon impact and explodes when it detects an enemy nearby. Partially recover your shields based off the number of enemies hit.* And to not make it step on the toes of abilities such as Devour for Warlock, make it only recover 20% of your shield per enemy you'd hit so that you'd need to hit 5 targets with 1 knife in order to refill your shield completely. And because it's unlikely that you'll hit more than 2 targets in PVP, it won't be oppressive on that front either. All in all it'd give your Super that extra oomph to keep going. As for exotics, I wouldn't know where to start. Maybe make something that gives you abiity energy on solar explosion kills while sharing the shield restoration from your knife to your fireteam? I don't know, the concept of shooting your own explosives kind of locks you into Tripmine and we already have an exotic for that without any for the other two grenades. Instead I'd lean in on giving us more avenues for explosives or a means to share our buffs to the fireteam.


Chorus120

Any kind of duration increase to this tree is fine by me.